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09/27/2010

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There is no "God of the Old Testament" and the "God of the New Testament." There is only one God and He is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow according to His word. God, the Father, Son and always Spirit always have existed as one throughout the First Covenant (Old Testament).The Hebrew word referring to God in Genesis and the Old Testament means "We" meaning what the church calls the trinity. He gave His gift of grace and forgiveness to King David and many others because they admitted their sins and asked for forgiveness. Although they may have not seen Messiah in the flesh they believed in him as prophesied in their Torah. Jesus and all his disciples lived 100% the same as Jewish people in the Old Testament, so did all his disciples.

A previous poster said that whether Jesus was a nutcase or the true Messiah, he has his/her full respect. Actually, "full" respect would require one to obey where Christ commands. If Jesus actually is the Christ (Messiah), "full respect" will get you nowhere in the way it was being used in the above post. That's exactly Bono's point (and what Jesus says of Himself). You can't take a middle ground and still land up okay at the end of the road if Jesus is the legitimate Messiah. Some more food for thought along those lines: Jesus was an exclusivist -- He stated that He wasn't a way, but the way to God, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me" (John 14:6). That brings the issue of His identity even more to the forefront of the issue; if Jesus truly is the Messiah, He is not just Savior and Lord, but He is the only way to God and all other means of getting to God are false. For everyone, before conveniently dismissing Jesus as just "another" religious figure or salvation through Him as merely "another" perspective, consider and search whether Jesus is legitimate. Your eternal fate could depend upon His identity; Jesus Himself says it does. "If you do not believe that I am He, you will die in your sins" (John 8:24) for which there is punishment from God because is the just Judge.

For all you Bono fans, here is the link to the picture he has never seen he took with Pope John Paul II wearing his glasses.

I am sure he has heard of Hitler... And Hitler was small fries compared to Attila the Hun, the Romans, etc. Yet they are just names to people... Jesus is a more powerful historical figure than all of them since his influence, his existence is influencing us right here, right now, TODAY. I also don't know if he is either a nut case or a true Messiah, I do know that I won't mess with him. He has my full respect either or...

I also recommend Case for Christ. That was the author's first book in the series and in it he was trying to prove the Bible and Christ wrong in any possible way. As someone who was raised in the church, it made me think more about why I am a Christian and why I believe that Christ is the Messiah. It made me mature in my faith just as we are supposed to do. Thank you Bono for having the courage to stand firm in your beliefs in front if basically the entire world!

For some information regarding some of the points of contention mentioned herein.

http://www3.telus.net/trbrooks/garyhabermas.htm

“Mengamuk” (my new word)

You know, theologically, there is a bunch to criticize here, and yet and I just can’t help but like this interview and Bono’s earnestness. Bono: “I accept the Old Testament as more of an action movie: blood, car chases, evacuations, a lot of special effects, seas dividing, mass murder, adultery. The children of God are running amok, wayward. Maybe that's why they're so relatable. But the way we would see it, those of us who are trying to figure out our Christian conundrum, is that the God of the Old Testament is like the journey from stern father to friend. When you're a child, you need clear directions and some strict rules. But with Christ, we have access in a one-to-one relationship, for, as in the Old Testament, it was more one of worship and awe, a vertical relationship. The New Testament, on the other hand, we look across at a Jesus who looks familiar, horizontal. The combination is what makes the Cross.”

Ok, first, let me just apologize to all my Jewish brothers and sisters, please forgive Bono for calling y’all psychopathic killers, this is what sometimes happens when song-writers (even successful ones) start pretending that they are theologians. Still, if he is talking about the ‘church‘ I think I like that phrase, ‘children of God running amok,’ it might be a good name for an american, born-again, messianic, congregation!

From wiki: ‘Running amok, from the Malaysian word mengamuk, meaning "mad with uncontrollable rage." A term that is used for a sudden outburst, usually aggressive or violent, and is preceded by a dissociative episode of brooding over some perceived wrong towards a person or object. The phrase is often used in a less serious manner when describing something that is wildly out of control or causing a frenzy, e.g., a dog tearing up the living room furniture might be termed as "running amok." ‘

Obliged.

God has chosen the foolish things of this world to confound the wise. Bono gets it better than some theologians!

I think what Bono was trying to say is that his god killed a lot of people in the Old Testament, but at that time the children of god were all Jews, but now the children of god are Christians, which makes a difference as Bono's god can relate to them better than he could relate to people in the Old Testament.

"The idea that the entire course of civilization for over half of the globe could have its fate changed and turned upside-down by a nutcase, for me, that's farfetched."

I wonder if Bono has heard of Hitler ...

In 1995 postgnzcxb in your 2nd hour | Celine 2012 Sale Oh huh construction is also fulank Celine 2012 Sale.
fkatabey ◆﹉

Bono has either has no idea of what Karma means, or he is misusing the term like just about every westerner since forever.

@the person trying to claim the 'eye for an eye' business for Judaism - Hammurabi got the jump on it well before Judaism did. Know your history before you start making historical claims.

This is one of the most incredible interviews I have heard in a long time. I am definitely sharing this with my friends. Thank you for sharing! <3 It is nice to know that Bono is as human as the rest of us and has not let his stardom take over who he really is in his heart. His humbleness and conviction to help others in need speaks volume to me.

Re: Judaism and Karma, please note that the Jews introduced the concept of "an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth" as a legal paradigm shift from the conventional practice of punishing a man or woman who stole a piece of bread with death. They were saying, you cannot take more from someone than that person took from someone else. If I poked out your eye, the most you can do for vengeance or punishment is poke out my eye (or fine me and/or put me in prison for awhile). It has absolutely nothing to do with karma. This was a radically progressive and enlightened legal concept in it's time--one which modern society often takes for granted. Unfortunately, I have seen many Christians display a complete lack of understanding of the history and intention of that phrase on bumper stickers and elsewhere. Sadly, they are knowingly or unknowingly promoting anti-semitism. It irresponsible for the members of any religion to go around speaking with authority on topics they've not bothered to adequately research.

Grace over Karma is the subject of my upcoming play Leave Of Absence, plus so many ideas expressed in this article. This encourages me but also humbly reminds me nothing is original! How confirming to read so many ideas along the same lines coming out of the mouth of Bono, an artist I find so inspiring theatrically and spiritually. Grace can be controversial; it has taken me seven years to get this play produced. Thank you for putting this out into the universe, poached egg. Lucia Frangione

Muslims are converting to Christianity by the thousands. Did you know that there are about 10 million Christians in Egypt? Many Jews are also converting to Christianity. I know MANY Christians who were raised not being indoctrinated into any religion.

Bono, you were very eloquent in that interview! Not sure if anyone has mentioned The Case for a Creator in this thread. I'd highly recommend.

Bono you are so real and such a good person. I'd like to meet you someday. I love people who love my Lord & Saviour. God gave me the gift of integrity and I thank him for that everyday. That's how I know when I see a Godly man who's for real and you meet that quota. Please call me if you're ever in L.A. and i'll make you the best sweet potatoe pie you've ever had so I'm told. I don't need anything just prayer and that's enough. I pray for you and your family and may they know how valueable you are. If you go on face book you'll see my husband and I. Stay faithful we love you.

God Bless you always.
Debra E. Tate

Hey Damian,
Glad to have you back! Know worries on being away, I know the difficulties of being part of manny discussions. Your questions are always welcome here. I do not personally have the answer to everything, but I will always try to answer as best I can, or at least try to point you in the direction. You wrote "I just don't believe that we have a clue about what God actually is". I believe that we can have a clue and that it is in the Bible, which is God's special revelation to mankind. The Bible is not just one book, it is a collection of 66 books written over a period of about 1500 years by about 40 different authors whose backgrounds and geographical locations vary. And from this we have ended up with one cohesive story. From creation and the fall in Genesis to restoration and a new creation in Revelation. I was a newly committed Christian when I began to seriously study and read the Bible. Once I began looking into the reliabilty of the Bible as an historical document, it really began to blow my mind. Archaeology only continues to confirm the Bible more and more. There is not one piece of archaeological evidence that contradicts the Bible. As far as different translations go (I amake it a habbit of using several different versions) the differences are usually a matter of translation style and preference. Some people prefer a more literal word for word translation, others prefer a thought for thought translation, and still others prefer a more middle of the road approach. For instance, a wooden literal word for word translation of 1 Samuel 9:2 speaking of the future King Saul would actually read, 'From his shoulders up, Saul was taller than anyone'. Now this does not make much sense in today's language, but from the context, we know that it means, 'Saul stood head and shoulders above the rest', which would be an example of a thought for thought translation.
As far as different demoniations go, I am one of those who is all for having different denominations. While there are non-essential points of doctrine we may disagree on, there are essential truths that we must agree on, such a the divinity of Christ, the bodily resurrection of Jesus, and salvation throug faith (trust) in Jesus for the forgiveness of sin. Examples of non-essential would be something like 'sprinkling baptism vs emersion' or 'how often we partake of the Lord's supper'- things like that. I think of the church in two ways: The visible church; i.e. the buildings, different denominations, etc.; and the invisible church, which is all believers united by faith in Jesus Christ. There is no one right way to worship; Some may prefer a more formaql liturgy, while others like myself prefer it to be more informal. If you were to walk into my church wearing a suit, you would be most welcome, but it would be obvious that it was your first time there. But back to the Bible... Christianity stands or falls on the Bible being true or not. There are those who will read it and read about it and simply dismiss it as a book of fairy tails, but there are also many people who read it and are lead to faith. One example of this (among many) is former Nazi V2 rocket scientist, Werner von Braun, who came to the US after the war and worked for NASA heading the Saturn V rocket program. He bacame a Christian as the result of reading a Gideon Bible that a friend had given him.

Hi All,

I have not had much time to be on this board as I have been working quite long hours so apologies if someone has written something and I seemed rude by not responding. I will look at these responses as soon as I can. I have in my free moments been looking at this issue of Atheists Riddle (Perry Marshal) which I am finding very intriging but just need to brush up a little more on my amino acids etc. Just to reiterate, I am not an Atheist but I just don't believe that we have a clue about what God actually is (other than what we ourselves, based on our perceptions, have defined and derived from the physical evidence of ourselves and our surroundings) and therefore cannot properly define God.

Just something that came to mind (and which is an extension of my multiple religions argument), is that why are there so many different versions of christianity. Before you answer, I agree that they are all very similar and that any variations in the bibles they use are minimal but why do we have Pentecostal, Roman Catholic, Protestant etc? Which in your opinion is the correct one? An answer that may pop up is that certain churches add to many layers in getting to "God", Roman Catholic's spring to mind :-). Interested to hear your thoughts.

Thanks

@F.Corderan,

There are many passages in the synoptics that you are overlooking that reveal the diety of Jeesus, which, I will admit, that to us with our 21st century point of view, are more subtle and less frequent than in the book of John.

I will note one example here: In Luke 5 when some men bring a prarlytic before Jesus, Jesus said to the man, "Young man, your sins are forgiven."
This really cheesed off the Jewish religious leaders because they believed (rightly) that only God had the authority to forgive sins and said "Who do you think you are? Only God has the authority to forgive sins!" To which Jesus replies, "I will prove to you that I have the authority to forgives sins." Which he does by healing the sick man.

By stating that he had the authority to forgive sins, he was claiming to be God. In many other passages, when Jesus speaks of his "sitting at the right hand of power of God" these are claims of divinity. Any time he refers to God as his 'Father' is a claim to divinity. In Jewish culture of the time, a son was considered as having the same authority as his father.

You should also notice that no one in the Old Testament refers to God as their father.

One must take into consideration that each gospel was writen to a specific audience of the time and each paints a portrait of Jesus for its intended audience. For a very brief introduction to this, please go here: http://www.padfield.com/1999/gospels.html

For a much deeper study of this I would highly recommend the book, Four Portraits, One Jesus: A Introduction to Jesus and the Gospels, by Mark Strauss

You should also take into consideration that most scholars, even many who are critical or skeptics, will admit that there is evidence that Jesus was be preached and worshipped as 'God'
within just a few years of the resurrection (or for the skeptic, the alleged resurrection).

You wrote that "The epistles cannot count heavily because they were written by men who had a vested interest in promoting the identity of Jesus as God." I am wondering what you consider this "vested interest" to be? There is no historical record, biblcal or exra-biblical, of any of the apostles gaining any kind of riches or political power from preaching Christ.

The Bible tells us that they were persecuted, imprisoned, beaten, and killed. External historical evidence tells us this as well. All of the apostles (with the exception of John) are reported to have gone to gruesome deaths, all while sticking to their story that they were eyewitnesses to having seen the risen Jesus.

As for your argument about women required to be subordinate to men, that is a whole other subjest for debate so I'm going to stick to the divinity of Jesus.

Please accept my arguments in the spirit of encouraging you to dig deeper into this subject for yourself to see if your arguments stand up to scrutiny. I have no interest in winning any argument/debate or to show that I am better or smarter than you. I am just a sinner saved by grace who wants to share Jesus with others. Please keep in mind that I was not always a Christian and was once a skeptic myself.

Peace to you,
Greg

@ Greg West

I take your point, that there are many clear statements of the divinity of Jesus in the Bible. But that sidesteps the essence of my point, which is that the synoptics, which are generally accepted as likely the most accurate accounts of Jesus's life, are almost devoid of these claims. At your link, under the heading "Jesus is God", the majority of the citations are not from the synoptics, and of those that are, the only unequivocal statement attributed to Jesus himself is that in Mark 14:61-62.

The epistles cannot count heavily because they were written by men who had a vested interest in promoting the identity of Jesus as God. further evidence of the fallibility of the epistles is that they add a number of other elements that are absent from the synoptics, e.g. the requirement that women be subordinate to men, which has no foundation in the Gospels.

The underlying problem is that the truth of Biblical statements regarding the divinity of Jesus rests on the prior acceptance of that divinity. 'The texts are true because they are inspired by God; therefore statements in the texts that Jesus is God must be true.' It's circular reasoning.

I am bringing this up not in order to score cheap points but because I feel that Bono's question, which is very commonly used in popular Christian apologetics (cf. "Lord, Liar or Lunatic?") is incredibly weak and does more harm than good in the long run. Bono's other statements about the operation of his Christian faith in his life are far more moving and persuasive.

@F. Corderan,

Hello. You stated 'That question ignores a third possibility: that the Gospels are not an accurate record of what Jesus said. Given that only John has Jesus making a clear claim to messiahood and divinity, I think the third possibility is the most likely.'

Although I agree with you that John paints a broader picter of Jesus as 'God' than the other Gospels, you are failing to take into account the Bible as a whole, including the Old Testament. Not to mention the epistles, which make very clear statements of Jesus as God, and many, if not most of these were written before the Gospels. Please visit the link below:

http://www.life4square.com/bible/jesusgod.htm

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