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03/22/2011

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"" A person does not become a Christian when they move from wrong thinking to right thinking; a person becomes a Christian when they turn away from sin and call on Christ."

I would think that the two go hand-in-hand. If someone had the 'right thinking' in place for what sin truly is, surely they would repent from it."

Joshua - precisely. And as non-believers we see the views Christians hold - for instance, a disturbingly perverted view on same sex couples - as grossly unethical, and we, being creatures of conscience, could never abide by such immoral points of view that the Christian holds on "faith."

FYI: ethics is never a matter of faith. It is a matter of reason and empathy in regard to fellow human beings.

To show this, you hold homosexuality to be a sin simply because, to be crude, god doesn't like himself some gay porn. You ignore that there are loving and committed couples, indeed, you say it's impossible, simply to stubbornly, ignorantly, and unethically hold on to your backwards views that give you comfort.

And that's the sin, and Christians are neck deep in such self serving and unthinking filth.

And when they here this language from us non-believers (which they, the church, and their magic book is full of) we find that they can't take it like they can dish it out.

Also your quote shows another manipulative trick - meaning, don't trust your mind, but your heart. In this case, it means, trust your animal disgust as a hetero sexual, because if you actually used your mind, you'd be convicted of your moral ills.

It's completely backwards and contradictory even in sentiment. Why even bother with "apologetics," if you are going to admit from the start "stick to your emotions, don't question them, baby jesus loves you."

Oh, my bad, I know why - because religion has been shamefully envious of rational thought and logic since the church father's discovered Aristotle and Plato. So they burned Alexandria and kept the writings to themselves, thus bastardizing your religion from the start, but Christians wouldn't know that, would they?

You guys are a shameful lot.

So long as you are following Number 1 with unwavering submission to a perceived (and invalidated authority - remember, that's what the apologetic part is for) you will always be prone to error, and always fall into logical folly.

And you call us "close minded?" We don't blindly follow text written by illiterate men full of bigotry and fear.

Rule Number 1 is basically like saying, Give your illogical and irrational emotional commitment first, than try to give a rational argument for your irrational commitment.

Talk about putting the cart before the horse.

Side Note: This is so 1980s. Any "confirmed non-believer (read: anyone that doesn't believe in a bold assertion that is untestable and unverifiable just because your emotion make you, personally, feel it's true) is going to bury any apologetic argument you have.

There haven't been any new ones since Aquinas. And each one presented is more embarrassingly debunked than the last (look at Ken Ham's implicit racism or just any painfully ignorant view of any creationist).

Once you realize that your "apologetics" are no more convincing than any Muslim's or Hindu's, you'll know you're on the right track.

Greg West - I challenge you to any topic to debate of your chosing - from the existence of god (and justifcation of belief thereof) to science to existentialism to whatever. Perhaps a youtube exchange?

You name it.

Sincerely,

Jeffrey Lee Robinson

In number 2 and in number 9, you state that non-believers have little knowledge of the bible. I would like to point out how wrong you are. In a recent study, more atheists passed a simple bible test with better accuracy than most Christians.http://open.salon.com/blog/oesheepdog/2010/09/28/athiests_know_more_about_god_then_evangelical_christians_do
Many atheists have read the bible , several times, and in more than 1 language. Most have even come from religious backgrounds. I know this to be true of myself, as well as many of my fellow atheists. (no I'm not talking about the ones who went to church on easter and christmas, I'm talking, the ones who's father is an elder, uncle is a minister, mom ran the choir, christians, Like myself...) You might want to re think your "commandments" because most arguments I've had with apologists, only confirm how backwards, outdated and irrelevant the bible actually is.

" A person does not become a Christian when they move from wrong thinking to right thinking; a person becomes a Christian when they turn away from sin and call on Christ."

I would think that the two go hand-in-hand. If someone had the 'right thinking' in place for what sin truly is, surely they would repent from it.

With all respect, I think you're right and Dan is wrong. The greatest sin is refusing to give God first place in our lives--and that's the sin that needs to be renounced to accept Jesus as Lord. If we waited for sinners (us) to turn from every sin to accept Jesus, we'd be waiting an eternity. Just As I Am isn't just an old hymn--it's basic Christian theology.

Frankly, I checked out this list with trepidation because I've seen apologetics used to browbeat nonbelievers and believers alike, never as a soul-winning strategy chosen out of love. Your guidelines are so wise that I'm rethinking this.

Dan Story wrote: "The purpose is to bring people as quickly and as efficiently as possible to the point where they renounce their non-Christian worldviews and accept Jesus as Lord."

Actually, I would say that the purpose is to bring people as quickly and as efficiently as possible to the point where they renounce their SINS and accept Jesus as Lord.

I make the distinction, not because I want to encourage people to hammer on peoples' sins -- that's almost always a mistake -- but because it really is sins, and not wrong ideas, that separates people from God. A person does not become a Christian when they move from wrong thinking to right thinking; a person becomes a Christian when they turn away from sin and call on Christ. Righteousness is not intellectual correctness, but devotion and right relation to the real and living God.

Just sayin'. Carry on...

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